Thursday, March 11, 2010

Some help from Paul

Some help from Paul

Copied from FB forum w/ comments thread below:
Thursday, March 11, 2010 at 2:19am | Edit Note | Delete

Bhagavan wrote:

Paul's first letter to the church at Corinthian seeks to address various factions that have emerged within church life. Some are followers of Paul, others of Cephas, and still others of Apollos. Division in the church is intensified further by disagreements over the spiritual gifts, including "speaking in tongues". Paul seeks to address this issue by emphasising the centrality of love, which is important over and above all other gifts and talents. This is to be no ordinary type of love, but "agape" love, a love which is selfless, unconditional, and voluntary.

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

Good luck to us all...


Comments thread:

Alexis Kriel
Interesting analysis of rational behavious by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. It sounds a bit like the way the rules and regulations of Krishna Consciousness are sometimes followed - without sensativity to time, place and circumstance and without the basic tenets of humanity in place.

Separating devotees from their families - because they are "karmi's" is not love.

separating yourself from other people because their association will "contaminate" you is not love... See More

chanting Hare Krsna as the be all and end all - above your responsibility to provide a safe, stable family home is not love

Deciding that you are experiencing the highest realisation of God above others - and looking down on others - is not love

A spiritual master who decides that he "cannot help you" - who has served loyally for many years - when you are no longer chanting not showing love

allowing a long-standing devotee to leave ISKCON and never enquiring about their well-being again not showing love

As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta says - "a rationalist believes in the principle of love but attempts to make her the maidservant of reason".

Let us not pretend to understand or experience LOVE when we have not even mastered kindness.
March 13 at 12:19am ·

Bhagavan Das
So well said goddess.
Women like you should guide the world
March 13 at 1:01am ·

Alexis Kriel
flattery will get you anywhere ;) I couldn't stand the idea of guiding the world ....I LOVE the freedom of being my own boss.
March 13 at 1:08am ·

Bhagavan Das
Not you of course, but most experience freedom as their ability to self destruct and successfully dominate.
I am sure you would be an interesting and fair boss
March 13 at 1:22am ·

Veda Sastra
I also think that what you said gets to the root of the problem ,and it's not flattery .
A motherly approach would be the key
March 13 at 6:29am ·

Alexis Kriel
Thanks for your guidance Veda Sastra ;) There is a difference between being powerful and being great - a bit of training helps (and I thank ISKCON for that) the end, your intuition will get you there.
March 13 at 6:41am ·

Veda Sastra
True .We should not forget to thank ISKCON
March 13 at 7:02am ·

Alexis Kriel
Nice to meet you Veda Sastra ;) Are you always so serious? If you know who you are, you can allow yourself a bit of innocent childishness - remember your perceptions belong to you ...they are not necessarily THE TRUTH.
March 13 at 7:26am ·

Veda Sastra
Nice to meet you too Alexis .Yep ..I am not always serious far from it ,and yes I should remember what you said .
March 13 at 8:07am ·

Alexis Kriel
...then I would enjoy spending time with you I have here. Warm regards.
March 13 at 8:12am ·

Veda Sastra
Thank you.My warm regards too
March 13 at 8:37am ·

Bhagavan Das
It is important for men to have illuminated women in their lives, who wear the jewelry of high minded thoughts
March 13 at 9:23am ·

Veda Sastra
Alexis jewelery impressed me too !!!!
March 13 at 9:36am ·

Alexis Kriel
;) I'm a simple person, bringing up a child alone ...if I can successfully accomplish this one thing I will consider my life a success. Thank you for your friendship - I value honest open conversation; friends who speak the truth ....Veda Sastra - the powerful thing about speaking is even if I concede to you or you concede to me, we have heard each other. Much love.
March 13 at 10:16am ·

Bhagavan Das
Sometimes perceptions are relative and personal and sometimes perceptions can be for the good of all.

Male dominated religion and politics has lead us to a completely imbalanced creation. Veda's perception of the "motherly approach", is the element quite conspicuous by its absence in most everything.

Men tend to see God as a male dominator and create a hierarchy of submission in all endeavors. A mother's view is equal love, respect and protection for all of her creation. ... See More

Men see danger everywhere and promote peace at gunpoint. The mother provides abundance for all so there is no scarcity and fear. Men promote survival of the fittest, the goddess promotes protection for the weakest. So Darwin met his match when Jesus said, the weak will inherit the earth.

I trust the two of you will be good medicine.....
March 13 at 10:22am ·

Alexis Kriel
Thank you Bhagavan - I have always loved the Goddess in every religion. And each time I am reminded of it, I feel at home. What you say here is true - so true. Bless the mother.
March 13 at 10:29am ·

Bhagavan Das
....and bless Alexis and Veda in their endeavors to raise high minded children.......
March 13 at 12:40pm ·

Alexis Kriel
...from your mouth to God's ears..... something happened here today, something powerful, reconciliatory, healing ...for me. Some ghosts of the past have gone.
March 13 at 12:52pm ·

Veda Sastra
That's KC in action ,no ghosts , no past ...just joyously moving ahead .That is your lesson Bhagavan ...that is your power partly invested in us.
Thank you again for being my power line to Krishna and me offering it to my family.
March 13 at 1:36pm ·

Dave Ehrlichman
Dear Alexis, thank you for your shakti presence here in this forum. If you have had a chance to read thru some of the other dialog posts, I think there are many of us who share with you this feeling of a shift towards healing and reconciliation, which is a source of renewal and strength. May the Goddess divine, continue to manifest thru you and each of us, as we move towards greater balance and integration within ourselves and within the world.
March 13 at 5:04pm ·

Alexis Kriel
Hello Vaish - I'm pleased to meet you. I will read through the other posts. Thank you and much love. Alexis.
March 14 at 3:06am ·

Bhagavan Das
Do you feel comfortable in explaining the exorcism?
March 14 at 9:50am ·

Alexis Kriel
Bhagavan - Exorcism? You've lost me .....what exorcism are you speaking about?
March 14 at 10:54am ·

Bhagavan Das
You said some ghosts of the past are now gone. What happened?
March 14 at 11:46am ·

Bhagavan Das
Both, if you are comfortable.
March 14 at 12:45pm via Email Reply ·

Alexis Kriel
It took you 14 years to write your Gaura Purnima letter (with realisation) in 2000. I haven't started to deeply heal my own wounds associated with ISKCON. In my case, it is 15 years now since I left the company of devotees. I have a new reality - and one that I am happy with. I have given up trying to resolve what I see as injustices. But the truth... See More is that there are still wounds. For my own self-preservation, I have "moved on", "let it go". I met you and would have liked to take initiation from you. You left a week before I was due to move into the temple. Relating to you, here, without the "awe and reverence" associated with the guru, as a person who's ideas I value, who I see as deeply transformed by your experiences, very much changed and awakened in a new way - almost transforms the relationship I had with my own diksha guru. Maybe - if the guru is one - then it is the conversations I've had here today that have left me feeling healed, appreciated, and having value. I don't believe that I have suffered more than anyone else or that my individual wounds are more important. I wasn't intending to deal with them again and have rather avoided any conversation that could be combative. At the same time, over time and since I left ISKCON, I have strengthened my own voice in the world and my own belief systems. More now than ever before I have a balanced spiritual process that I can apply to my world and that works for me. I can't eliminate my interaction with Veda Sastra as part of the healing process. For the first time, I had an opportunity to use my freedom to resist being bullied by the terminology of a suppressive system. She in turn was very open to transforming her relationship with me - and I guess my conversation with her was also the sum total of every conversation that I've had, that once angered and subdued me - changed and healed, now moved me to tears. So those were some of the ghosts of the past - without mentioning details - that I know you will understand. The thing that concerns me is that I may have to look at more deeply buried business that I wasn't planning to look at.
March 14 at 1:27pm ·

Luca Treu
sorry but i would like to go over,why many important disciple of srila Prabhupada now thinks only about a personal glorification?why nobody (except few)like to take back the original message of S:P and try to constuct a new spiritual movement,based of the instruction of srila prabhupad,why this loss of enthusiasm?it's umbelievable and sad to see some important disciple of S.P on tv interview and they doen't tell a single word about their Master.where is the gratitude?
March 14 at 3:46pm ·

Tusta Krsna
If we have any past problems with Iskcon then it means we weren`t seeing Prabhupada there
but we were letting our own ideals of how ISKCON should be run or who should run ISKCON by our ideals.This is a fledgling movement by any standards and we dont understand how a spiritual movement should be run,we have blamed our own down falls on others weaknesses when actually there were our own weaknesses.
Prabhupada is always and will always be there and so will the exploiters of this movement...dont give in.
March 14 at 4:21pm ·

Luca Treu
March 14 at 4:26pm ·

Bhagavan Das
Dear Alexis,

I believe I can speak for the others who are meeting you here, that we all appreciate what a beautiful person you are and what a strong heart you have.

My experience is that often healing and clarity come from knowing what you want by experiencing what you don't want. This is part of the process. ... See More

Karma is not just a simplistic good brings good bad brings bad, cause and effect cycle. The events that we draw into our lives, although shrouded in pleasant or unpleasant energy, mask the lessons we are meant to decipher.

These lessons are the truth behind the judgements we ultimately hold towards God. It is the pent up emotional energy holding these judgments in place that recycle us birth after birth until we graduate to the next lesson. So whatever process we are working with must train us to recognize and release denial because it disconnects us from that which can teach us.

If instead of understanding and accepting the experiences we judge them, we lock energy into rigid patterns of perception which then "help" us to recreate the past in different forms over and over again.

As we evolve in our journey we gain the strength and insight to go even deeper into the unhealed areas- always with the help of Spirit if we are open to it.

Sometimes, as with my sister/ daughter Veda shastra, we act as triggers to release emotions which in turn opens up space for higher understandings.

Thank you for your presence.

March 14 at 4:26pm ·

Priya Torrecillas
So many groups in internet especially betwen devotees but as clear and powerfull and less politic than in this one i have yet to see Thank you to you Alexis thanks to veda and thanks to Bhagavan with is a pleusere to meet after so many years and in such clean way without gost from the past Jay Jay Sri Radhe the Supreme Personality Of Goodhed Herself.
March 15 at 6:41am ·

Alexis Kriel
;) Priya - you have made my day special. A big hug for you!
March 15 at 6:55am ·

Swarup Hebel
Bhagavan -- You wrote above, "It is important for men to have illuminated women in their lives, who wear the jewelry of high minded thoughts."

Well -- I've been Kanka'd and I've been Chitta'd ... but I consider both my SHIKSA gurus!!!
March 15 at 8:31am ·

Alexis Kriel
I don't want to feature too much in this thread, but since I have played a part in the discussion, I feel I am involved. The above entry by Mohini is piece of hate speech that doesn't seem to belong on this page. Anyone has a right to their views - no less Bhagavan. Remember - whatever devotees gained from their many years of association with temple communities and temple life belongs to them. How Bhagavan, or I, or anyone else for that matter chooses to interpret the philosophy going forward is their right. If it doesn't resonate with you Mohini, then stay away from it. Do what you like and what you believe in and keep your life positive. You say that Bhagavan is misleading innocent souls - personally, I can say that not many of the devotees bothered to speak to me over all these years. I don't need your protection or anyone else's. Whatever I gain from these conversations belongs to me, in the same way, whatever I gained from temple life belongs to me ....and I shall use it for my own ends. As long as I do not also engage in hate speech as you are doing ...I see no harm.
March 15 at 12:16pm ·

Alexis Kriel
Okay ...I shouldn't have bothered .....
March 15 at 12:41pm ·

Dave Ehrlichman
Mohini, I'd like to remind you that you are a guest here in "our" forum, where all are welcome and asked to be respectful of others. If you have some particular issue or grievance, please feel free to speak your truth and feel heard and it will be properly responded to with honesty and sincerity. While all are welcome here to share communication ... See Moreand civilized discourse, those who insult others and show blatant disrespect and disregard to anyone of the assembled godbrothers or godsisters here, will be asked to leave and be blocked from further discourse. As human beings, what to speak of aspiring devotees, it is possible to agreeably disagree and still remain civil. Those who cannot handle this simple rule, shall not remain guests in our forum. I hope you can honor this simple request.
Vaishnava das (forum administrator)
March 15 at 7:51pm ·

Veda Sastra
Priya thank you for your kind words that come from your pure and tender heart.
Jaya Sri Radhe!
March 15 at 10:49pm ·

Veda Sastra
Mohini devi dasi prabhu,
It is interesting that in a moonless night like yesterday you should come up with such a brahmastra of Mahabharatean proportions .

The moon as I said was totally eclipsed in the sky while Saturn aspected both the sun and moon from the sigh of Virgo .

Virgo represents the brahminical class , purity , renunciation ,holiness in a sanitized manner ,humility and hard work .All of these points were brought up in your letter
compounded with the fact that the energy of malefics tends to be very strong when the moon is absent while harsh language prevails and of course Virgo is known for its sharp tongue.

The Brahmana class are the head of society - when not afflicted that is - but still there should be other classes to do other functions and we cant possibly behead them all in the fury of a moonless ,ominous night.
March 15 at 11:38pm ·

Dave Ehrlichman
It appears that the spiteful, nasty posting by Mohini murti, has vanished. Anyways, such vile filth does not belong on a forum of civilized people, what to speak of devotees. No love loss on that one.
March 15 at 11:39pm ·

Veda Sastra
I think her post had also to do with issues of broken heart ' the loneliness the desolation etc' ,referring to when Bhagavan left .

She also mentions doing material quotas in sankirtana which must have been painful for her as she felt staying behind with her spiritual duties ,understandable but that was mostly emphasised by sankirtana leaders at the time .

Anyway selling Krishna's books will always remain in our quota of spiritual merits never to be resented.... See More

I am sorry that all she saw of Bhagavan was ' a plastic smile' she must have missed his classes and beautiful philosophical explanations intergrated with personal understanding .

At some point she felt we ' question the people who served for many years' .Questioning in the right mood is not bad and may lead to the enlightenment of both parties , thing that appears to be needed in this day and age.

Of course ISKCON belongs to its members ,but the rest of humanity have also right to spiritual life and we haven't challenged its position .If at any point she felt we have done so she could have intervened using argumentation or totally abstain from reading or taking part.

And finally Brahmanas ought to be careful when addressing people who look up to them for spiritual guidance .Epithets such as ' insects ' or ' evil' are the least to say too strong to use for people on the process of exploring spiritual life .
Then what are you going to call the rest ?

Being hurt by someone doesn't mean abandong love all together , pure individual love can never be replaced by religious fanatisism or ideological crescendoes for the simple reason that in the end Krishna is a person and we are supposed to learn to love him .
March 16 at 2:48am ·

Veda Sastra
In addition ,my life as an ' insect ' has been very succesful for the last twenty years without resorting to anyone for help or support ,other than my chanting and what I felt as Bhagavan' s strength in moving forward and powerfully apply spiritual principles .

What you call as materialism I call intensity ,failing somehow to keep to that level of intensity doesn't absolve the first premise altogether .
Having intense spiritual experiences ,can sustain a lifetime of adhering to that taste which is not such a foreign concept if you consider the proof provided in Srimad Bhagavatam .

If you choose to see it that way you have strong spiritual support that needs no external help ' thank to the devotees who have helped me etc' .
In the end ,at some point we have to rely solely on ourselves to drive this plane while relying too heavily on others is bound to cause disappointment .

I also detected a mixed message in your letter ,as it always happens in hate letters .' Evil person ' and ' loneliness ' when he left and ' Good luck ' in the end .
Good luck to what , his evil schemes ?
It had better not .
And if he is so hateful as you describe why did you feel lonely when he left while others did the recovery job?

Search all this out and let go ...move forward and make amends with what used to be your spiritual master .You will find tremendous power if you show emphathy to whom Krishna chose to lead you ,
March 16 at 3:36am ·

Priya Torrecillas
Yes, many devotees including my self have a hard time to forgive Bhagavan Prabhu in the beggining but as time passes and we all mature, we can look into things in a different perspective. Bhagavana P was 14 years younger than me now when he took this enormus responsibility and he did it with all his energie. Like I said somewere else in "his zone... See More" there was no child abuse, and there was a very strong unity beetwen devotees, somethings were wrong, of course, but i should try to separate and hear my heart and my own felings no some body else's and my heart and feelings tell me I am very happy to have meet you again Bhagavan Prabhu and all of you also .
A big hug to Vaish, whom i know from New Mayapur.
March 16 at 3:53am ·

Veda Sastra
Harribol Pruya ,
my loving respects .
A good friend is tested in adversity ,thank you for your trust and friendship
March 16 at 5:06am ·

Alexis Kriel
All those years of holding a grudge, remaining angry and bitter, wanting revenge ....these things poison us. I don't think a devotee in this situation should count out the assistance of a psychologist - there are many spiritually-minded psychologists - to overcome these sort of feelings.
March 16 at 10:43am ·

Veda Sastra
I asked Mohini various questions regarding the contents of her letter ,rather challenged her to face the implications of it ,and the bad impression it would cause to anyone believer or not .
She didn't reply to any .
I read some other of her posts , hardly getting anything since they were in Spanish .
She claims somewhere that Bhagavan ' derides ISCKON ' gross misconception probably due to lack of comprehension in English .
While somewhere else she claims ' she is very little refined so she is happy to connect as it will improve her' Good point.

People must realize that Bhagavan is no longer one of'' theirs' to accuse in whimsical , capricious and impulsive manner and then disappear .He is part of another world where civilized human beings demand for an answer when accused and if the justification is not satisfactory an apology should be offered.

We don't hit and run Mohini should have learned that all those years under Bhagavan ,you didn't get any of his sense of responsibility or ethics neither his great sense of philosophy and discussion .

Sorry you missed on a great teacher but then everyone gets what he deserves .
March 16 at 3:11pm ·

Priya Torrecillas
You need some translation here i am
March 17 at 2:13am ·

Veda Sastra
Harribol Priya ! Pamho ,thank you for the offer
March 17 at 3:14am ·

Veda Sastra
Alexis ,sorry for replying so late but I was also moved by the interaction between us .
I may appear a bit frigit but for me this time is very special and I want to enjoy it fully like the old days with sleepless sankirtana nights that I don't resent.
The natural reaction on leaving ISKCON is to develop one's self and belief systems as you say .

Now there are two ways to go about it ....
Either you find bridges and connect your experience now with KC,after all everything is dovetailed with Krishna .

Or you do something nasty which disconnects you permanently .
One cannot use the same judgemental attidute to both
There should be differentiation ,otherwise all logic is seriously impaired.
Bhagavan spoke about this all the time ,he talked about discriminating and applying one's intelligence .He always thought also in terms of people living outside and their free interaction with the temple ....
March 17 at 4:01am ·

Veda Sastra
I guess what people find hard to forgive is the ego development .
Relinquishing your ego is a very hard thing and basically you would be fully repaid for it once you reach pure devotion in full understanding .
But unless that happens you are somehow crippled ,potentially maybe on the way but deep down you have that feeling which is transformed in indiscriminative hatred towards anyone who exhibits any healthy ego develpoment .

When Guru, Bhagavan except distributing smiles never allowed any of this hatred to exhibit and he would often reprimand the person manifesting it leading to a climate of non -separatism. I guess many people would hold a grudge for that too.
March 17 at 4:16am·

Priya Torrecillas
Yes healty Ego devlopment that is after all our real self is the best to help us achive our goals
March 17 at 9:35am ·

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